Aligning DevRel with company and investor priorities

Meghan: I'm super excited that we have all of these investors. If you guys want to all come on up, I'm going to let you introduce yourselves, but really excited they're all here to chat with us and share their insights of working with portfolio companies, sort of seeing that evolution and being able to tie together your roles in these companies and with what the board and leadership and everyone is thinking about. So appreciate you all for being here. Yeah, give them a round of applause. And Hadley, I'll start with you. If you can introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself and we'll go on down the line.

Hadley: Yeah. Hi everyone. My name is Hadley Harris. I co-founded a seed firm based here in New York called Eniac Ventures. We started investing about 15 years ago, investing out of our sixth fund. My co-founders and I actually all went to undergrad together straight to engineering way back in the day at Penn and then worked as developers for a while and then started starting and helping grow a bunch of venture backed businesses. So did that independently for 10, 15 years and then really enjoyed the early stages of company forming even before product markets that so want to start a firm that really focused on investing at those. So we lead pre-seed and seed rounds, 12 folks on the team all here in New York, but invest around the world, mostly North America and we're relatively generalists, but having engineering backgrounds, we tend to like stuff with a decent amount of tech.

Certainly developer oriented business has been a mainstay of us over the last 15 years, so thank you very much for having me.

Lauri: Thanks, Hadley. Lauri. Hi everyone. I'm Lauri Moore. I'm a partner at Bessemer Venture partner where I invest from inception to series A primarily, but the firm invests across every stage globally. I spent most of my career as an operator, so started as a researcher, turned data scientists at a very small startup, mostly led product teams across early to grow stage startups. Eventually started a company in the hiring space, built on the very first BERT models if anybody was building the stage. The bottles were very fun and interesting, but frankly not all that useful.

So crash landed into LinkedIn where most recently before investing I was leading jobs, product management and the jobs business. So I spent the bulk of my career with or as a data scientist and engineers and love the tools that support and help drive impact for that technical persona.

Naomi: And Naomi Ionita, I'm a partner at Menlo Ventures. We are a 47-year-old venture fund investing from seed to growth. We're in our 16th fund, 1.35 billion all in on AI proud investors in anthropic at the foundation model layer, Pinecone at the vector DB layer, unstructured and Clean Lab at the data layer and I focus at the application layer right now. A lot of dev and data, first tooling, workflow automation, vertical software. I too came from the operating side about 13 years building product and then early in this whole product-led growth world, I was at Evernote early days and built out that first full stack product growth engine focused on getting more users, getting them to activate, getting them to pay us more, invite others, retain all that journey. And so that was my segue into venture was advising founders on those topics.

Meghan: Awesome. Well thank you all again for being here. We'll start by, can you tell us, Naomi, some examples of the portfolios portfolio companies you worked with, some examples of how DevRel has really impacted that in different ways, whether it be growth product, so on.

Naomi: Yeah, I have a couple examples. One was Netlify, the portfolio company, and there was a lot of really early organic growth and developer love. And when you talk to those founders, one thing they did to make that so authentic was written in the job contract for the first batch of engineers was you had to do a certain amount of marketing, you had to author blog posts, you had to put yourself out there and it was just written into the job. So it wasn't like DevRel was kind of thrown over the wall to this one other person who owned it. It was all just flowing out of the engineers and it was developers talking to developers in a way that really spoke to them. That was a powerful hack that they did to just make sure it was embedded in the culture and everybody really felt a lot of responsibility. Then you go to just yesterday we announced our anthology fund where large investors in Anthropic and that is a new fund with Anthropic where Menlo and Anthropic will be co-investing. So we're not just offering capital but we're offering credits, we're offering early access, we're offering company building resources from the Anthropic ecosystem and the Menlo team to set these companies up for success.

So that's something that's more of this community and resource play to really bear hug these next generation of developers.

Meghan: Your first example reminds me, I'm sure a lot of people will know this, but at Twilio everyone had to build an app early on to interview, didn't matter what role and then kept going everyone there, you had to build an app and that's how you got your track jacket. I'm sure both of you have examples too of how developer relations has impacted the companies you've worked with.

Hadley: Yeah, one thing that you don't hear about as much with DevRel, you hear kind of as a company scaling, kind of building community, of course driving growth, but actually the very early stages tend to focus. It can be really helpful as a company is just kind of figuring out what they want to do and finding product market fit. I think one company I work with Cube, that's a semantic layer. We pivoted I think three times from when I led their seed round until we found product market bid and then kind of raised A and a B and it was kind of the dore function within the organisation that was led at that time by the two founders that really kind of fed into that to kind of understand what was happening and the opinion of the developer community that we were just starting to build and their thoughts on each of these products that we kept launching. And it was when we figured out what we were doing, it was really driven by the community that we had built over that time. So it's one area I think Deb, we're all can help at the very early stages. A lot of people don't think about.

Lauri: I'll just add on one hack that a company I work with closely did recently that I thought was very intentional and has been impactful for them DLT hub. And so they're an open source Python framework that connects any source to any destination and the founding team just has such a clear understanding of where they do play and where they want to play in the ecosystem and whom they collaborate with and should over time collaborate with. And so something they started doing was just paying attention to the content from all of those other companies and when they were even smaller would repost share content from those companies that they thought could be collaborating with them and just built up a lot of goodwill in the ecosystem from their DevRel peers at these companies. And so now it wasn't with a transactional mindset, but now they get an extraordinary amount of amplification on everything they post because of the friends that they've built up in the ecosystem and have been able to associate themselves with much larger brands.

Meghan: Yeah, that's helpful. Thank you all. And I think the relationship side of it was talked about a lot earlier and the champions you can build. Lauri, can you talk a little bit to the aspect of how developer relations can align their function and the work they're doing to the business objectives of leadership?

Lauri: Yeah, I think too often I'll hear, especially from early stage founders that I work with like, oh, we should have a DevRel function. You probably should, but let's start with why. What are the strategic objectives of the company and why?

What specifically within DevRel is it that's going to align up? And so I think, and I don't need to tell this audience, DevRel can do so many things from top of funnel awareness to creating no more fertile ground for leads to be farmed from to customer success and support to informing a product roadmap. So it can do all of those things, but being really intentional about what is most important to my company right now so that in designing a DevRel function, you design the right function for your company at that moment and then make sure that the specific tactics that are trying are driving up to those metrics too. Just make sure that the learning velocity is going as quickly as possible.

Naomi: Yeah, I can add to that. I think big companies are probably tying into some OKR process. It's small companies. I mean asking your CEO, what are you talking about with the board and what is our North Star as a company, right? This question of are we trying to grow our developer base? Are we trying to better engage them and support them? Are we trying to move them from a free version of the product to a paying subscription? Are we moving up market from a PLG strategy to more enterprise and a sales led motion?

You represent the voice of the customer. At my two previous companies, I was so passionate about this topic that I built out a research org and I also pushed that work to a bunch of different personas. I didn't want just one person to own it. I wanted everyone to, but to own the voice of the customer and the voice of the developer in a way that can be the glue and the feedback loop into all these different teams.

You should be helping run the beta community and understand those customer feedback loops. You should be understanding what events have the most ROI and we can tie to different marketing strategies. What features should we be building? People are clamouring for them. How can you balance product feedback with what the sales team is hearing too. There's just being just the go-to person to answer these questions just puts you in that power alley of what are we trying to do as a company and how can I meet the voice that's represented around the table and not something that's just sort of not that attributable and sort of off to the side, what a powerful thing to represent as the voice of the developer that informs everything that's roadmap, pricing and packaging. It's strategy, it's revenue. So yeah, I just get really excited to think about architecting those feedback loops and making sure that voice is carried through. I like

Meghan: Power Alley, I think I'm going to steal that, but it's true. Asking all of those questions and making sure as it evolves, you're staying very close to what everyone is focused on. Hadley, how early maybe building on that and as companies evolved and you were saying how early you're investing, how early do you think DevRel or when do you think developer relations should be brought into a company?

Hadley: Well, I think DevRel as a kind of concept should be kind of at the very beginning of a company. I think it's really important when I'm looking at companies that are developer oriented that there would be strong developer, DevRel, DNA within the founding group. When I was thinking back to all the companies I invested over the years and some that unfortunately didn't work out, there's one in particular I could think of that was extremely strong team and they just didn't have that DNA on the team and then they tried to hire a Dev Rel professional, but to Lauri's point, they didn't really have their kind of strategy in place yet. So it was kind a question around what that person looks like and what their strategy was. So I think as a concept that needs to be at the very beginning and it needs to be run by the partner, sorry, by the founders.

Within SaaS companies, there's a generally known idea of founder-led sales, and I think there needs to be founder-led Dev Re in the early days and you need to get as far as figuring out that early product market fit in terms of what you're building, exactly what problem you're solving, who you're solving it for. And then I think you can go through the strategic questions of what you need from DevRel, what it's trying to do, and then I think you start building out that team and hiring folks like yourselves. One plug I would say back to how important kind DevRel DNA is on a founding team, I think if I was you guys, I would be thinking about joining a founding team or starting your own company. I think that skillset is completely invaluable amongst a group of co-founders.

Naomi: Sometimes it's just not called DevRel, right? You have a founder who cares a lot about building a clean API and really good documentation or thinking what's our strategy around content and community. We're having these conversations at the earliest stages with founders, but sometimes we're just not calling it DevRel, but it's happening.

Meghan: Sort of adding onto that, do any of you have strong opinions about where in an organisation developer relations should live?

Lauri: I think it's so company specific, and again, it comes back to what is developer relations primarily driving top of funnel? Is it primarily driving engagement, which can inform upsell, but I think most important is that the leader, the functional leader is passionate about developer relations and wants to represent that org with, in a way, to Naomi's point that they know what's being talked about in the boardroom and then they have a direct line to how the developer relations team is driving that objective. That matters

Hadley: Also at that it needs to be kind of a first class citizen. It can't be just kind of a small part of a bigger department just like marketing and sales and product and engineering.

Meghan: A challenge for everyone, but agree.

Hadley: Yeah.

Meghan: Well, I think maybe if we take this and dive more into the investor side of it, how there we go. How does developer relations factor into investment decisions? How are you seeing it in those conversations and conversations with the board, all of that. Maybe Hadley again, I'll start with you and we can

Hadley: Yeah, I can talk especially at the very earlier stages, as I was saying, I've learned when looking at something that's developer oriented that's selling and being used by developers that DNA is super important. I think you'll find at the later stages then it becomes more of a department or a group of people that have that task you need to dig into. And you guys probably have more experience with that than I, but yeah, it, it's the equivalent again of having go-to-market DNA on more of a SaaS company. It's absolutely needed and I've learned kind of the hard way if you don't have that can really kind of spin your wheel. So I guess very important is the answer.

Lauri: Yeah, echoing everything Hadley said, developer relations and becomes the bridge between a company and a community. So as an investor there is no better way to understand how is this product with being experienced by its actual users and then at the founder abstraction, how do they think about connecting with their community and customers? What Hadley said about the founder founders need to have that as a part of both their DNA and the DNA they impart on the company that is going to be a critical part of their go-to-market strategy. Even if it's not developer relations in the more traditional form or someone with that title, it is how are they thinking about engaging with their end user, their customer, and incorporating feedback into their product.

Naomi: Something we seek in underwriting early stage investments is developer love. So before you're talking about Debre, you're just talking about people just love this thing. People are just jumping out of their chairs to tweet about it. They tell their friends, they're all over in GitHub. It's just like you see it organically spread like wildfire and that developer love is something that you can't manufacture when you've got it. It's just so powerful. And so then it's how do we harness that? How do we get more of that?

How do we replicate that? How do we amplify it? And so that's what we're looking for is just that really authentic developer love. And then it's the go-to-market strategy that kind of wraps around that.

Meghan: So a lot around the developer love the strength of, I mean this is kind of early brand strength and the core of who the founders are. I guess maybe the next layer, we heard a bit in some of the talks earlier about metrics and how do you take some of the production metrics into business metrics and results? Are there things like that if you're looking at a follow-on round or those types of investment decisions, are there ways that you think developer relations can sort of present what they're doing that will help in those investment decisions from a quantifiable,

Hadley: Yeah, a hundred percent get hub stars.

Naomi: It ends up mapping to different go-to-market strategies. That's why it's kind embedded everywhere. So we think of, okay, what's our content strategy? What do we need to put out into the world that's really a good resource for the ecosystem? What events have ROI field marketing now that we're all kind of back in real life post? So I think it's more like a channel strategy. What are we doing in person? We're doing virtually, well webinars, content, go down the list.

So think of that as more like broad marketing, but of course DevRel powering into all of those different channels really effectively.

Lauri: Also think having that understanding, and depending on your stage, it might be a more mature understanding, it might be an early understanding of when I do this thing, it's a tactic that brings more people into my product. I know that when they land there, we can engage them. So having some sense of those early tactics, why you're doing them. And then as your company moves to later stages, then investors can look at that and say, oh, we know that if we poured more money into this company, they have an understanding already of what's starting to work or what they would try with it next. And they've shown that they can try new things and learn quickly. I know Hadley jokes about multiplying GitHub stars time some factor and you can get evaluation, especially at the earliest stages. For me at least, it's much less about quantity and I always quite much more about developer love and that quality or depth of passion that someone has for the problem that you're solving along with an understanding of who those people are and then we start to test different ideas and how to reach them.

Meghan: Great, thank you. Are there common misconceptions that you think that developer relations or other similar functions might have about VC and investment?

Naomi: I think we should get the audience a microphone that, yeah, we can

Meghan: Bring it back in q and a, but we can come back to that one. We'll come back to that one

Lauri: In q and a. I'd love to hear there are any,

Meghan: If you,

Hadley: I would imagine that's the case, I'm just not sure what it would be.

Meghan: What are the biggest trends that you're seeing today in developer tools? Hadley?

Hadley: Yeah, I mean, as you can imagine, a lot of stuff's driven by ai. AI now, especially kind of the philanthropics of the world, generative AI and some of the newer models. So I do feel like from an investment point of view, this may be obvious to you all or I feel like that's kind of taken up the entire airspace over the last couple of years across most sectors. I think developer tooling maybe more than most, and I guess I'd probably kind of categorise 'em, is two types within dev tooling. One is obviously these models are really good at writing code and that there's a tonne of companies that have been built on that. Obviously you have stuff like copilot, it's gone completely mainstream, but a lot of derivatives and interesting other projects around just agents that can do things for developers around security, around checking code or around qa.

Tonnes of opportunity there. And then it also turns out that these models are really good at even writing config and designing infrastructure for organisations. So we're seeing more and more stuff around that. So I'd say that's a whole kind of bucket around, well, these models are good at writing code and designing systems. And then there's a whole nother bucket I would say, which is around, okay, all these companies want to utilise these newer technologies. How are they going to do that? There's a lot of security around that. If you're going to have open source models, there's a lot around deploying and pipelines and how you're going to maintain those things.

So there's all this kind of tooling around how organisations will best utilise these technologies where there's just a tonne of opportunity that we've been seeing and make a bunch of investments over the last two years.

Lauri: Similarly, I think one of the things that's both fun and really chaotic right now is that we're seeing two simultaneous transformations. One is that we take work as it has existed in the engineering and data stack, little over the last decade. We can now augment and change in pretty big ways. A lot of the work that has been done with AI to automate code reviews, automate documentation, but then at another abstraction we also have software development for AI as opposed to AI for software development. And so this is to Hadley's point around just the varied nature of some of the tools that are needed that are required to build with data or build for models and production that are changing dynamically, just fundamentally different tooling stack is required in some cases. So re-architecting the plane

Naomi: As we're flying it, and you guys are living this every day, but I've seen the crop of these AI native DevRel in a box companies. We have Nick present from Inkeep. And it's interesting to think about leveraging AI on top of all your technical resources and documentation and being able to handle the q and a more efficiently than going to your team and having to handle them manually one by one. But what that then unlocks is these bridges into the business side. You have engineers asking questions about pricing or billing. It's like, oh, flag that to a sales rep who can go in and convert a bunch of these individual developers into a larger five bigger contract. So if you have these customer touchpoints right now that have a lot of efficiency and again integrate with all these other systems of record across the business, I think it's very cool for those DevRel questions to actually feed their way into more hopefully revenue attributable moments with prospects or customers.

Meghan: You kind of took that where I was going to go, which how do you see developer relations evolving? I think AI obviously is going to be a big part of that, but over the next 10 years, how do you see this sort of function evolving?

Naomi: I mean I think AI is going to automate away a lot of this sort of painful and mundane and busy work, but the human element is going to be even more important. And I think by automating away the painful and mundane, we can all focus on higher order problems and human connection and that community that feels really authentic. And so I think being able to level up all of our work and do the things that the machine's never going to take away from us, we hope we're going to still want to be with each other and exchange ideas and collaborate. And so I think that just shift is welcome in the industry.

Hadley: I think there's an analogy with the sales stack where within the sales stack, there's many startups at every part of it right now that are focused on every part of it. And I think when you think about the problems of DevRel, there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of understanding unstructured data, there's a lot of person to person communication. To Naomi's point, there's a lot of stuff there that can be automated, but also insights that can be gathered that were just not possible before.

Lauri: And I think one of the challenges for this community will be as a lot of your road tasks will be able to be automated away, but one person's automation could be another person's noise. So on the receiving end, the community, how do you break through when now would be users', customers are inundated with more comms because the people who can send those comms can send them more efficiently. Or I had a company that this idea of being able to write personalised content for a number of would be integrations for their product. And so they're like, this is great, we can automatically write 400 of these. But being able to both automate while keeping their quality bar and then not delusion their community with something that is not at their usual quality standards just caused a whole new set of challenges to

Naomi: Undertake. I think that could look like personalization at scale, where right now you're doing a one to many exercise, but to be able to meet people where they are based on what you know about them, what they have said on Twitter, what events they've gone to, what issues, what bugs that they've submitted, like wow, to be able to do DevRel in a personalised way, but at scale, I think that's where we get with AI unlock.

Meghan: Yeah, very cool. And going back to what you were saying earlier, all of you about how you are thinking about these investment opportunities and how developer relations is a part of that early on, it's about passion and authenticity and all of that. So how can these things help just amplify that. Well wrapping it up so we have some time for questions. I think in closing maybe what is one takeaway that you would want to give to this audience, these developer relations and related practitioners here?

Naomi: I think making an impact and having that be something that's attributable. So tying to what is the number one top priority of the company? How are my efforts going to direct line to that and my team get to feel really proud of our work. And so that's the full trip of understanding the data impact and how it's rippling through the business.

Lauri: Yeah,

Well said. I feel like Dev right now is maybe at least point around the analogies with the sales stack. There's a lot that feels similar to where CS was 10 years ago before it was really recognised as the critical standalone function that it is. And so I think over the next five, 10 years, there's only going to be more of an appreciation for how critical DevRel is in driving not a whole range of potential business objectives. And you all in this room are pioneers in this field. So I echo the point earlier, I think you're at a really interesting position to join an early stage company, start something and help with some of these transformations that are inevitably underway in this function.

Hadley: Yeah, Lauri kind of took mine. I was going to say, as I said before, I learned the hard way that I wouldn't make another investment in a team in depth tools that didn't have strong DevRel DNA on the team. So I think that's a really great position for you all to find some co-founders and start something cool and then hit us up.

Naomi: Thank y'all. Do we have any questions? And we have some companies hiring for DevRel, so if you want to talk absolutely. Find up after. I'm happy to run the microphone for you all who has some questions for our lovely panellists.

Meghan: Knew it always count to 10.

Audience member 1:

I'm not asking for hunting, don't worry. We've got funding. There was a comment there that CS took five years away from establishing itself. What did it do to help become established as a required function within org?

Lauri: Good history question. I think one of the biggest things that happened was with, well in the shift to SaaS there became clear that a number of companies were able to prove a land and expand motion. And then with the development of outreach and some other tools, you had tool, you had tools that defined a function by having a buyers and budget around it. And so I think that also really helped elevate the brand and the brand of the function and awareness of its criticality around the table. Do either of you see this transformation in a different way?

Naomi: All right, cool.

Meghan: More questions.

Roving mic operator:

Oh sure,

Audience member 1:

Let's go. Sorry for hugging. That could have just come up afterwards. So DevRel is dead, right? So that's, I've seen that three times recently. So I'm very interested get the panel's opinion on why people are saying that and effectively what they really mean by that. So Sean Wang as example, Keith Casey, was it Twilio? Yeah, was sorry. Yeah,

Meghan: That was a good,

Audience member 1:

Still a bit of a spicy take there. Anyway, so there's been like Keith Casey as I said today or recently published something around that. So what is your take on what they're meaning by that? Maybe you can explain a little bit more.

Hadley: Hey

Meghan: Eric, I think I'm going to try and restate the question, which was you've heard recently in a couple different places, DE is dead. What's our take on why that might be trending and do we agree or disagree? Why are people saying that? Is there any

Lauri: Truth? Is it just a spicy way of saying the functions undergoing such monumental transformation that it's now a 2.0?

Naomi: I can take a stab at this.

I think the endless just conference attending and just doing things that you don't know, the ROI of, it's fun to have budget and travel around, have great conversations with like-minded people and then you come back to the office and people are like, what did we get for it? And you're like, I don't know. I connected with some people on LinkedIn and got a couple business cards. So I think that era is over. I think it's over. I'm just going to do all of these things off to the side and not tie back to the strategy, not tie it back to some real monetary impact, tie it to some user growth number, but all the activities of dev, that's never going away. Connecting to developers and creating real value and making sure that they're adopting the product and telling others and paying for it and expanding within the organisations that's running a business that's never going away, but it's just how the function is done and getting credit for it I think is the missing piece.

Roving mic operator:

We got one over here.

Hadley: Nice.

Audience. member 2:

So I just want to piggyback on that question. So I think with developer relations in general, it's very, at least on our perspective, it's very difficult to kind of track what our full impact is because everything we focus on is very organic. It's like how do people feel about the product? Do they love us? And we might speak at a conference, somebody spoke earlier about seven touch points before someone might come in as an inbound lead or something like that. So they might see us at a conference, they might read one of our blogs or somebody from the community, which might've been some of our efforts or compares us to something else or whatever. And there is this journey that this user goes through before they ever touch the company. So for us, we see the value because we're on the ground, but what could we do to show our impact to the organisation or to the investors to actually show a worthwhile investment so we can get more headcount And

Naomi: No, I get this a lot on the marketing side is like people use last touch attribution models and it's like a bunch of other things happen before that and you can't quantify it. So it's not just a real that feels this pain. We live this all the time with thinking about how to deploy, go to market budgets with our founders. So yeah, you are not alone. It's hard. And I think where I'm going with this, were you guys users of Orbit and Comsor, there was that crop of these DevRel platforms that came out that were trying to tie the activity you're doing offline with product usage data with social and how do you connect the dots that were never connected before. And so I do think what the tooling that lets you at least see more constellations from all these stars, that's one step. But I think just also coming back from that conference and being like, these were these three insights that I heard.

I just need to make sure the head of product hears this from me. You are representing the voice of the customer so it can feel good and you can meet a lot of people and have a lot of interesting conversations. But coming back and being like, what were the three unique insights I heard? Or there's this pattern emerging and I just want a sounding board on it, I'm going to pull the head of marketing. How do you just be the feedback loop person to make sure that those narratives are tying back into the work that's being done in the office. So that I view as a responsibility of the qualitative

Hadley: For what it's worth. Going back to the kind of AI stuff we were talking about, I think that a lot of the understanding of unstructured data is get a lot better and is quickly getting a lot better. So there's certainly some privacy concerns around having access to all these kind of touch points. But I think from in terms of when you think back to products like Orbits, it was just a little early in terms of being able to understand the unstructured data, what people are talking about say in there, their Twitter feed and being able to tie it back. So I think there's going to be some pretty interesting developments there.

Meghan: I could add on to that too. You said this happens across go to market. It's not just developer relations and I can remember it both Twilio and Stripe when there was doubt that sales actually was being helpful. It's been proven later, but I think one thing that helps a lot of these functions, it's both showing the impact and the numbers and all that, but I think a narrative, and you were touching on this, being able to show a clear story and that voice of the customer with a narrative so that people can feel what it's like to be there. You know what it's like when you're talking to those people and you see them have the aha moment and things click and they get excited and being able to translate that passion back to everyone who's not at those things so they see what people are going through and the transition. So I think bringing those stories and narratives back and repeating them and helping people see the journey. And the same thing with sales. When sales is early, helping people see the journey that customers are going through, that voice of the customer, where their challenges are when they're having the aha moments and getting excited.

I think it's very similar across the board.

Naomi: Your insight changes like roadmap prioritisation or your insight changes like pricing and packaging or your insight changes. Some customer segment that was like, that's board level discussion and so get credit up for that, drive that conversation internally.

Meghan: I think we're probably Oh, oh no, I'm just going to do exactly what you're doing. I was going to say we're at time. Is that past time there might be some more questions, but we'll be around. But I wanted to say thank you Naomi, Lauri Hadley for being here. I.