Quiet

Carmen: Hello and welcome to another episode of the DevRel Book Club. My name's Carmen. I'll be co-hosting today with our kind guest here gift who stepped in to help me. Hey, gift. How are you today?

Gift: Hi, Carmen. Hi Bekah. Yeah, nice. being here.. My name is Gift Ojeabulu. I'm a data scientist and a co-founder and community lead for data Fair saff. Yeah, I do a lot of community work in the machine learning and data science space, and I'm looking up for my new next DevRel opportunity.

Carmen: That's amazing. Yeah, folks, if you're looking for a data science on ML Community Lead or DevRel, please hit up Gift. Gift. How can folks get in touch with you? Yeah, so Gift Ojeabulu. GiftOjeabulu_ on Twitter or you can just search on Google. Fantastic. Well thank you. We'll put links to that in our show notes, but today you will be joining me as co-host. Thank you. Once again, we're going to bring in a very special guest, Bekah. Hey Bekah. Welcome. Hey much. How are you doing?

Bekah: I'm doing really well. How are you doing?

Carmen: Yeah, excited. Yeah. Bekah, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Bekah: Sure. My name is Bekah, as you said. I'm the technical community builder at Deepgram and I am one of the maintainers and the creator of the virtual coffee community, which is a community for developers at all stages of the journey. And I'm a nontraditional, I have a nontraditional background. I spent 10 years teaching college English before moving into tech, and so I feel like I've brought a lot of what I learned as a teacher into my career now in DevRel. And so that's a little bit about me.

Carmen: That's amazing. And it's so encouraging to hear come in from different backgrounds and do amazing things and include everyone. I will, full disclosure, admit I'm a part of virtual coffee and it's just like one of my favourite communities because everyone is so kind and inclusive and it means a lot. So thank you for that.

Bekah: Well, thank you so much for saying that.

Carmen: Yeah. Alright, well a book with us, we, you've brought, you've suggested a book, we've read it, we're going to talk about it today. I'm going to give us the name and the author of the book. The book is called Quiet the Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain, and both Gift and myself have read the book and we've just going to let you have at it and tell us a little bit, I'd love to know if I may kick us off, Bekah, why did you choose this book and how has it affected your work in DevRel?

Bekah: I think that's a really great question and somebody along the way must have recommended it to me because it popped up on my library loan book list and said, Hey, it's available. Oh, I don't know when I've ordered this, but I'll go ahead and give it a listen. And so the book is about introverts and I would say I consider myself more of an introvert, and that's one of the things that I always hear people asking, how can you be an introvert in DevRel? And I know a lot of introverts in DevRel, and so I went through and I read the book or I listened to the book and I found a lot of insights into myself as an introvert. And it also undid maybe some of the negative thoughts I had about being an introvert because it really does a good job of kind of tackling what the preconceived notions of an introvert are, what it means to be successful. And I thought, wow, this is really great. And it also shows how the difference between introverts and extroverts, we have different strengths and it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It means that we do things differently and we can excel in different ways and hey, when we can collaborate, we can really hit things out of the park when we know what we're doing and we're able to talk through these things. And so it might not be a traditional DevRel book, but I think because we have lots of different folks in DevRel that it's important to talk about these things and to figure out how we can optimise ourselves and our personalities and avoid burnout. And I think this gives a lot of really great ways to do that.

Carmen: Yeah, one thing that surprised me, especially when looking at DevRel from the outside before coming in is that when you think about DevRel, somebody who's very outwardly focused, has a public presence at the beginning, sounds kind of counterintuitive to think that introverts can be DevRels. And the book I think does a really fantastic job at outlining how this isn't the case, even though it's not, as you said, it's not a DevRel book strictly. I dunno, what do you think Gift? Is this something that struck you as well? Well,

Gift: Yeah, sure. The books, when I was reading the book, I'll say I connected it a lot to DevRel because DevRel professionals that are introverts, they are DevRel professionals that are extrovert. So I started connecting it to we, the technical writing part, why some people are more interested in technical writing documentation and the backside and not the public face. Then I started connecting it also to why some people are more interested in speaking out conference building community being the face like evangelist or doing more like that. And some people are just, they just like being resolved not because of the know how to do the other part, but they just feel they're best at that part connected to that part a lot in my head. So I feel the book is an amazing book.

Carmen: Wonderful. Well, let's get into some observations that gift, and I had, of course, this is meant to be an ongoing conversation, so please, if something comes up, please feel free to bring it up. So the first thing that really struck me was that was how the book in the last three years during the Pandemic, I've been thinking a lot about how I use social media, not just as a DevRel, but in my day-to-Day. And the book mentions how social media has levelled the playing field for expression as an introvert. And this really stood out to me. And in all honesty, to this day, I still haven't figured out where I fall, whether I'm an introvert or extrovert because I enjoy company, but I also gear in for my alone time, and I also get energy from being with folks. So Well that's regardless. Bekah, how do you feel that this statement about social media and how it has levelled the playing field for expression, how do you feel this extends to Derel?

Bekah: Yeah, I think it's a really great question and I would say, I said I'm an introvert, but maybe a better word that describes me as an ambivert where you can change. And I also, after reading this book, I thought maybe I'm an introvert with ADHD, and that's just really what I am. I think that it complicates things. But in terms of social media, really that's what led me down the path of DevRel. I had a Twitter account and I was going through bootcamp and I started to just tweet my progress. And being in academia, there wasn't a real great support system or community or anyone that really cared at all what I was doing. And having Twitter and being able to document this journey, I did a hundred days of code three or four times, so I hit close to 400 days of coding straight mark, But it was just great to have other people there who were cheering me on. And I am a mom of four kids, so it's not like I really have time to go out and find a developer community. I live in a small town. And so my developer community really started quickly on Twitter because I had that support system and somebody on Twitter mentioned to me, Hey, why don't you blog? Your background seems like natural for blogging and you can talk about your experiences. And I thought, well, I guess it makes me super nervous and it makes me a little bit nauseous to think about blogging in public. But I built the blog with Jekyll and it looked really terrible, but I put it out there and I didn't have comments, I didn't have any Google analytics, but the point for me was to be able to share my story. And while I was in bootcamp, my educational instructor, Katie McKenna, I'll never forget her saying, when you tell your story, it invites somebody else to theirs.

Carmen: Yes, sorry.

Bekah: And I just really love that, and I think that that's what social media does, but it takes off some of that pressure because you don't have people standing in front of you. And in addition to being an introvert, I'm also really shy around new people. I get this overwhelming sense of I start getting really sweaty and I get nauseous and I'm like, I don't know what to do with myself, and I don't have that when I'm not standing in front of a group of people. So it really kind of helped me to ease into the experience of DevRel by sharing the situations that I was going through, my learning takeaways, and to be able to micro blog on Twitter, all of the things that I was going through. So for me, it helps me to both overcome shyness and then not have that energy suck of being in front of a bunch of people while I was going through this journey and kind of documenting all of my learning. So I think it definitely depends on the person and a lot of different factors, but I think that when we talk about DevRel, we always thought, especially pre pandemic people that go to conferences and they give all these talks, which those are things that I do enjoy doing, and we'll probably touch on that later, but I think that I can enjoy doing those things because of my experience doing it on social media first and kind of warming up and growing accustomed to doing those things. And it really became a transferable experience for me. And so I think it provides a great opportunity for people who might not want to do the speaking experience because there are many different ways that you can educate people, interact with people, and support people who are interested in your DevRel team.

Carmen: I love that. Thank you. It's really encouraging and really relatable as well, if I'm honest with you. I dunno what your experience is like. Gift.

Gift: Yeah. Mine, I would say I started as the social media person, and it just happened that people started connecting with me and I was just welcome to doing a lot of things online, just doing public work and doing things. So I'm always free to be in the face of people without getting maybe nae or anything because yeah, x before then, I used to be a dancer. I used to be other thing, I used to be a dancer. I used to be a singer. I drum also, so I do a lot of things. So I have had cases where I'm always the face of people, so I'm never shy. So that it also, that has given me the confidence to do things in front of a lot of people without being nervous or thinking about it. I just do it because I feel like a normal thing I've been doing since I was so young. Yeah,

Carmen: That's amazing. Thank you. Yeah. And one thing that the book also mentioned that I found quite interesting is this notion of people having high reactivity or being a high reactive personality and the correlation that this brings with being introverted. And one thing we were wondering was, in your opinion, Bekah, as a DevRel, we have a lot of the time, we have a very public profile. How do you find this correlates with having that introverts who have a high reactivity personality? How do these affect each other?

Bekah: Yeah, I think one of the things that's really important that this book helped me to understand is that we all have different thresholds for different things. And so recognising where you find energy and what you can work on that gets you excited is really important. And so as you are working through this process, there might be things that are hard for people who have high reactivity, maybe it's too overwhelming, but it's still part of your job. Then you might also need to think about, okay, if I do this thing and it takes the energy out of me, how do I replenish that energy? And it probably means you shouldn't be doing this thing every week, then this is not the job for you. Find one that doesn't focus on that thing. But also think about, okay, after I do a Twitter space, I don't know why I find Twitter spaces to be really exhausting, but as soon as I'm done, I can't go straight into a meeting. I've tried to do that before and it was such a bad idea. Instead, I'll go take a walk afterwards. If I have to be in a meeting, I'll have it on my phone with my camera off. I'll go take a walk around the neighbourhood, and that just gives me what I need to restore my energy and move on to the next thing. And so identifying those moments in what you're doing and how they impact your energy and the way that you see things and can interact with other people, I think becomes really important. But also recognising that you can learn to do different things, even though something might seem overwhelming to you, it doesn't mean that we can't work through that thing. And it kind of talks in the book about the idea of nature versus nurture, and it doesn't mean that you have to be this way and this is the only way that you're going to be in your life. It means recognising what those things are, and it means identifying ways that help you to do the best at what you can be doing. And so for example, I don't really live streaming. It makes me super nervous, but I make a point to do it anyway because I want to make myself uncomfortable. It's a controlled situation though, right? Because I'm on camera and I can turn that camera off anytime I want and I can say, I'm done with this, and then I'll be done with it. And I don't have to do it all the time, but also it's pushing myself to grow a little bit, to maybe push on that comfort zone area and then learn and grow a little bit more. And somebody might find like, well, I tried live streaming like five times and I vomit every single time, then don't do it anymore. But also, don't let yourself be limited by the label and what you think it means just because you do feel uncomfortable.

Gift: Wow. Wow. I think all the points you dropped is very nice. I think I was the only one that I think livestream being nervous about livestream, I would say is normal. But if you've been doing it for years or I got something, getting comfortable with what, you're not convenient with time. Yeah, I think that's the pain points that I, so that's is very nice. All the points you dropped here about being eye reactive and being an introvert here. So very nice. Ramos, what was your say on that?

Carmen: Oh, I have thoughts because funnily enough, I kind of find also, well, I don't know. I still haven't given myself the time to be introspective. Well, maybe that's something to talk about as well. But I find live streaming kind of liberating live. It means that I can mess up and stumble over words. Trying to record a video on the other hand is two minutes of video takes me three hours every time. But the thing I get anxious about live streaming actually, is that I find this real stress not to be boring, especially with coding. You want to be entertaining. So that's something that stresses me out. And the book touches up on this too. The book talks about personality elasticity, how we can stretch our personalities. And I found this interesting because you were talking about this too, Bekah, about how, for example, when you do a Twitter space, they're tiring. And I agree. They can be super tiring, especially when you have to be ready to jump in on the point at any time. And then putting your hand up and all that and waiting for your turn. It's a lot. It's a lot. And then it's like the topic moves on. Sorry, I'm completely going all over the place, but that's that stretch, isn't it? So you extend your personality so that you can do the Twitter livestream, and then it feels that pull that potential in physics, you've got that potential energy, so it needs to revert back to where it was, and that's why you go on a walk afterwards. And I find that giving those words to those thoughts I found really helpful in the book.

Bekah: Yeah. There's one other thing I wanted to mention. There's this part in the book, and so I was talking about this study that was done by Kagan, and it said, high reactive types are more like orchids. They wilt easy, but under the right conditions grow strong and magnificent. And that really touched me because I thought, yes, we often see these things as weaknesses, but it's not a weakness, it's just we haven't been fed the right things or we're not doing things that enrich our lives that we're not all the same. And recognising that these differences are special and that's a strength is super important.

Carmen: And that's actually one of the points, and it's one of the reasons we talk about why diversity is so important, and I think that perspective is highly valuable. Yeah, thank you. Speaking of those differences, one part that the book really touched upon that was significant to us as well that I wanted to bring up was how it mentions that introverts struggle to finish their work up to their standards. Now, I'm not talking about perfectionism per se, but I'm wondering how does this relate to the daily DeVere work where the tendency is to, for example, opt forgoing ongoing, having ongoing collaborative work full of interruptions and different group dynamics. I'm wondering, yeah, how that stood out to you.

Bekah: Yeah, I think it's that idea in DevRel also. Things are often moving very, very quickly. And so there's not a lot of time to put into the thought process and ideas. And those are often the things that introverts excel at having time to think through things. And if your team is constantly asking you, Hey, here's a new thing, here's a new thing, here's a new thing, then you don't really have that time to think through those things and to develop your thoughts or opinions on that. And so you might be forced to put out something before you feel ready because you haven't totally formed the idea of how you feel about that thing in your head. And often with all of the things that we have to do, whether that's an event or a podcast or a blog post, there is not enough time built into really thinking through what you want to say and taking the time to deliberately write the thing. And so as part of that, I think that it's really important to build feedback into the process of what you're doing, because a lot of times too, we see you complete one thing, now you're onto the next thing. And so it becomes even harder to produce something that you have fully formed in your head or to complete that idea when you don't have time for feedback either. Because when you get feedback on things, it allows you to take that, take what you've learned and apply that to the next thing that you're going to be working on, and then you're learning and you're growing from that. And so if there isn't that time, if there cannot be that time to build into fully understanding what you're going to be doing, taking the time to put out a piece of work that you really have developed an understanding of, and a depth of knowledge and satisfaction, then you need to build in that feedback time to say, okay, hey, how can I improve the next time? How can I get some forethought on what I'm going to be doing? And bring those ideas all together as you move forward and really tie in the paths for the community too, because I think that when you are building community, you're taking your community members on a journey with you. And if you don't know where you're going and you keep hitting dead ends, then it becomes really hard. Your community members aren't going to follow you after a while. If somebody took you, they're like, Hey, we're going to go on this trip, and they just keep going dead end after dead end and turning around doing U-turns, then at some point you're going to be like, all right, I think I'm just going to go find somebody that has a better math than you have. Right? Yeah. And so this is all a tangent from the question. I'm sorry, but I do feel like, no, no, you're fine, really. And also allowing yourself to recognise that you might feel uncomfortable in that moment. This may not be up to what you want it to be. You may have wanted something different, but that's okay. It's okay to keep moving forward to learn from what you did in that moment and to just let it go. Because when we continually dwell on the things that we feel like we haven't done to our own standards, it oftentimes just results in anxiety and not improvement. And that's definitely not what you want to do.

Gift: Yeah, I think this is very, very, very, very true. Taking feedback in everything we do is very important. We don't want the case where we are doing things the same way for two to three years without improvement. So I think taking feedback, I picked that word, taking feedback into as much as, because there's a lot of content switching in DevRel, and sometimes you need to irate fast, you need to just deliver fast and do things. Sometimes you need to outgo being a perfectionist, you just need to, because a lot of times people are bound to be in their head sort of, because you're not the best person to judge what you do. You're not the best person to judge if you're a good writer. Sometimes you just write down and feel like, oh, is this really good? And you notice you put it out there and they're like over hundred people saying, wow, this is a very nice article. You killed it. And I was like, yeah, I'm struggling with this thing for over 15 years now, and I can't just start an example that I'd be wondering, wow, how come everybody this article was good? Why? Because you are the one, you created it in the process while doing it, so you just feel like, okay, this might not be so good, but putting it out there, getting feedback and some person, and I think we should also be able to separate feedback that seems like criticism from feedback that is more direct towards, maybe, let me give an instance and I'll pass it to Carmen. An instance in cases where maybe I write and I give write, okay, me, I'm holding a Twitter space instance. Now maybe I had a Twitter space and someone was like, oh, you talk so fast and you talk so fast and I'm not getting what you are trying to communicate with me. Why not try to make it instead of 1.5 x in terms of being fast, make it 1.2 x or 1.0 x, you get Now, you don't have to take that as maybe a critics, you have to hone down this feedback. Because the funny thing is I'll always say, people in the UK talk faster than some people in some continents. I've noticed it. And this is not just because maybe it's just because of your culture, the way you grew up, which will move us into the next question, the way the number of people you've met with time. So you just tend to talk faster now. Yeah. So that's just it. Yeah. So you take the feedback in the right way and try to improve on it because with time you become so better and try to help people make better feedback also. Carmen, what was your say on this?

Carmen: Well, I learned, I think it was two years ago, something that really stuck with me until this day. And that is this notion of niceness versus kindness. And when it comes to feedback, nice feedback is, Hey, this was really good. I really enjoyed this article. Nice one kind feedback says, Hey, this is a great article. I think it could be better if you did X, Y, or Z. And that sort of helped me reframe feedback in a way that when somebody's, and of course there is unkind and nice feedback, that destructive feedback, which I'm not going to even acknowledge at this moment because what I want to touch upon is I think, and that sort of helped me reframe feedback in a way that when somebody's, and of course there is unkind and nice feedback, that destructive feedback, which I'm not going to even acknowledge at this moment because what I want to touch upon is I think it helped me reframe, this is why I always try to offer constructive feedback, even though something might seem really magnificent, just try and offer different avenues for how something could go, for example, how say an article could be broken down differently or say some slides could be have a different way of complimenting a talk. This sort of thing. Being on the receiving end of that. And I'm somebody who is, I still to this day, I can't figure it out, but I know I'm sensitive to feedback when somebody's like, okay, when you're on instant messenger or something, and they're like, alright, I've got some points of feedback. And I'm like, alright, racing myself, okay, here we go. So reframing that to be like, this is something that somebody's doing out of the kindness really helped me take that better. I'm not sure if that was all not too much of a tangent, but I thought it was really interesting. And actually, Bekah, something else that you touched upon that really spoke to me was about talking about leading a community, how when paired with being an introvert can be really scary. Again, in my introverted side, maybe I am a bit of a, I've thought about whether I'm an ambivert as well. Yeah, the thought of leadership can be really scary because you want to do good for them, you want to lead them, you don't want to end up in those dead ends. And so bringing back the whole notion of elasticity, I think it's important to know where those strengths are to grow out of them. I think push know what the breaking point of that elasticity is as well. Super important. And to know where to be kind to yourself and know where to slow down as well on the pushing. Yeah. Thank you. This has been really wonderful to think and talk about. Well gift, you also touched upon something that I wanted to bring up as well, and that is this notion of, and the book talks about this as well, how differently we perceive what the merits and demerit are in different cultures of introversion and extroversion. And I wanted to know, Bekah, how this portion of the book that talk about how different cultures react to these notions, how this affected your DevRel work as well.

Bekah: Yeah, I think as DevRel people, it's really important to think about everybody that you're representing, all of the people who are out there and that you're interacting with. And I don't think that anybody's not in a global world in DevRel anymore. And so oftentimes we limit our knowledge and understanding to our own experiences. And if we're really trying to be welcoming and supportive and understanding, then it's important to understand about other cultures and to think about how they perceive different things and what that culture is like. And one of the examples that they gave in the book talked a lot about introverts and other cultures being very quiet and listeners and how that's allowed them to excel. And I think that that was a point that I need to go back to and revisit because I really love what they said about listening and allowing you to ideate, but to really understand those people who you are talking to. And to be honest, listening is not one of my strengths. I think it's the ADHD in me. I always just want to jump into the conversation and go off on tangents and just go for the ride. But really recognising the importance of that quiet persona and then also ensuring that you can reach out to them and recognise that person's been quiet. I wonder if they have something to say and to represent that voice and offer to them like, Hey, do you have ideas on this? Because maybe there's just been no space built into the conversation to allow them to be a part of the conversation. And it takes me back to this idea of the Pac-Man method, which is one of the first things. So the very first conference I went to, I was learning how to code at the time and I felt really unsure of myself. I was at the conference with my husband who's an engineer, but I was just learning, I was a mom of four and I just felt like this, maybe this is not the right place for me to be. But one of the people that I met at the conference, Kyle, he explained the Pacman method to me very early on when we got there. He said, everybody was talking in this group. And I came up and he said, let's make some space. And the Pacman method is let's always have a space in the group for one other person to join in. And so if you're not familiar with Pacman, it was like this video game in the seventies, maybe it's like a little circular guy who had his mouth open. So it looks like, I don't know, a circle of cheese with a piece cutout. And so that mouth that's open, that's making space for other people. And I think that as introverts, it might feel hard to join in conversations anyway, because you're not naturally inclined to be part of a big group of people. And if there's not space and you're trying to force your way in there, that could be even more overwhelming. So being a part of a DevRel team and making sure that you are representing all the voices, giving people a place to share, to feel welcome and to participate in ways that are meaningful to them is really important. And the Pac-Man method doesn't just have to be at a physical location at a conference. There are plenty of ways to do it virtually as well. And I think that as DevRel folks, that's what we need to be thinking of. How do we allow space for other voices and not just use our own experiences to inform the way that we do things. There's always that growth in understanding that needs to happen to make sure that everybody feels supported and to also make sure that you're doing your job the best that you can.

Carmen: I love that. I am such a huge fan of the Pacman method. It's started popping up at the conference. I've been going to conferences for a very long time, but I started noticing them round about 20 16, 20 17. And it's just been a joy to see, because when I started going to meetups and events, I was that person. I was that person who was terrified to go up to a group because especially strong group dynamics can be scary to approach. So having that inclusive approach, and now by now that I'm a little bit more familiar and can run on, I sometimes jokingly say I run on anxiety at events, I'll go out. I feel that, yeah, now I go out of my way to be like, even if somebody's a little bit further away considering, I was like, Hey, come join us. What's your name? What are you up to? And stuff like that. I find that really encouraging and of course being respectful of folks, not forcing anybody to do that. And I find that as you go to different events, you notice, especially around different parts of the world that you notice how important it is to be mindful of these things. Gift. I'd love to know what's that like for you

Gift: In terms of going to conference? I'll say when I started, I just started going to conference, that was around 20 17, 18, so it was a bit recent. Yeah. So I remember when I went to the first conference, yeah, Lagos, I was a bit into myself. I was finding it hard to relate with people because I was feeling like, Hey, what if I talk to this guy that I, I'm into this part. And the guy just be like, I don't know, you don't talk to me again, don't move close to me. I was just thinking about a lot of things. So I was just like, oh, I don't know how to relate. So that's how that conference passed. But with time, I started noticing that I just find the interest and listening to what they're talking about before I come into the conversation. Maybe I approach someone and I see the person is talking to someone about something interesting, maybe about Android development even maybe I don't have a deep knowledge about that. Then I can just bring something relating to that part and try to interact with that person. And I see people in the tech community are, a lot of people I've made in the tech committee, they're free to, they welcome people regardless of their level, regardless of the stage. Without 25 years experience, you see someone with 20 years experience welcoming six months, someone with six months in the field, that's something very nice. So it's just get out of your shell and try to interact with people and not overthinking things in your head. It's not that bad. Right. Yeah.

Carmen: Yeah. It's such an important reminder I find to, it's such an important thing to remember that we're all human beings and we've all got our stuff going on, and we're all fine. We're going to be okay and all that. Yeah, no, this has been really amazing. Thank you. I do want to be conscious of your time and start to wrap up, but Bekah, is there anything else that in the book that stood out to you that you maybe wanted to bring up as well?

Bekah: So I really liked the story of Eleanor Roosevelt and FDR. And so the kind of short explanation of this is Eleanor Roosevelt was an introvert, and I would say a shy one at that where her husband was not, was the opposite. And I think that one, opposites attract, but also it can be challenging to work through those things. But one of the things that they did, they were able to finally come to a situation where they could be multipliers for each other. And so it's funny because I think any best friend I've ever had has been an extrovert with a capital E. And initially I've always been like, who is this person and why are they talking to me? Why do they keep talking to me? Just because I am very internal and I like to think things through and take things slowly as I meet new people and they're like, what's your life story? And tell me that you'll be my best friend. Wait, wait, I didn't agree to that yet. I just saying, but in the end, I ended up being best friends with these people because of the ways that they pushed me to grow. And also we were able to learn from each other. And kind of when you're able to do that and you fall into sync, you can see how much you learn from each other, how much more impactful that you can be together. And also I think you're a lot more almost accommodating. You see the other person and you recognise, wow, this thing that you do might make me feel uncomfortable, but you do it so well and you make such an impression. And that's not something that would come naturally to me because I don't understand that that's not my natural inclination towards things. But not everybody is an extrovert and not everybody is an introvert. And so learning that you can do these things together and that you can reach a much wider group of people like Eleanor Roosevelt and FDR did, once they realised that they both had these strengths and they were able to touch so many more people and to reach out to a larger group of people. And so it was actually one of the big things that the book has me thinking about how can I work with other people who are not like me, who have different takes on things and how can we support each other through this cycle of whether it's community building or content creation or whatever, how can we work together to really power each other up? And I think that that's going to get you a much further distance than trying to do it by yourself or going against your natural inclination and burning yourself out. I think that a lot of what the book talked about, I also took to, this is how I can avoid burnout as an introvert who is in DevRel, because now I understand these things about myself and I understand how I can work with other people a lot better.

Carmen: What a powerful reminder it is to know that you don't have to everything. Because in DevRel it can be pretty tempting to be like, oh, I want to own all the tasks. It's like, you don't have a team you can delegate. It's okay. No, thank you. Fabulous. Well can start wrapping up. I just want to say thank you to you both again, Bekah. Where can folks go and find you? Where can they learn more about what you're up to and how can they get in touch?

Bekah: Yeah, so I am pretty much anywhere I am. I'm Bekah HW, so it's B-E-K-A-H, and then another H and then a w. I like to stay consistent with it. You can find me on Twitter for sure. You can find me blogging on dev two and also blogging over at the Deepgram blog. So if you go to blog dot deepgram.com and also in our Deepgram community forum. So I am all the places and I love meeting all the people online, so definitely hit me up.

Carmen: That is wonderful. Well, I think we can start saying goodbye. I just want to say thank you both once again. This was such a joy gift. Thank you so much for joining in today.

Gift: Yeah, thank you, Carmen. Thank you. Bekah I'm happy to be here.

Bekah: Thank you so much.

Carmen: Yeah, thank you both. And I wish you the best day and to everybody listening, all the best to you.