Engineering Management for the Rest of Us

Carmen: Hello and welcome to another episode of the DevRel Book Club. I'm Carmen, and as always with me is the wonderful Matthew. How are you, Matthew?

Matthew: I'm very well, thank you, Carmen. How are you?

Carmen: I'm very well as well. Thank you. And also a big thank you to our sponsor, Common Room for making this episode possible. Very much appreciated.

Matthew: And if you want to find out more about Common Room, which is a data platform and an intelligence platform for your community, you can go to CommonRoom.io. So Carmen, what are we covering today?

Carmen: Well, we have the joy of having with us, Amy, who will be talking to us about the book Engineering Management for the Rest of us by Sarah Drazner. Super excited to have you. Thank you so much. I'd love it to ask you if I may please, to tell us a little bit about yourself and where you're working and what kind of stuff you're doing.

Amy: Thanks. Yeah. I'm Amy. I work with Adyen as a developer advocate. I work as an internal developer advocate, kind of special that way. Most of my responsibilities, internal facing. So think of how the developer advocacy traditionally is external working for the developers that use the company's products, but my team's responsibilities are targeted within, so it's more insight. Insight. Yeah. We are looking in physically

Matthew: Why this particular book then because engineering management for the rest of us by Sarah Drazner is the book we're covering. Carmen, thank you very much. And this is one of those topics that I don't think we talk about enough in developer relations is how do you go from being an individual contributor to actually running a team? And for a lot of people that feels like a natural progression, but actually they're entirely different jobs. So why this book?

Amy: Yeah, very much like you said, Matthew. For a lot of people it feels like a natural progression, but I am a little passionate about thoughtful leadership. I'm passionate about how we can be more intentional with managing experiences because I understand that engineering management actually defines how people experience a company, how they experience a team. It's very, very, very, it's the line. It's very, very direct. How I experience my company is very much how I am managed within my company. So I'm a little passionate about having us have these discussions about how we can be more thoughtful in leading teams and how the skills maybe differ, might not be too different, but maybe differ when we are considering going that career path from individual contributors to managers. And of course, DevRel does have a manager's path, so we start as DevRel practitioners, individual contributors, and there's also that path to also be a manager and we are also engineers. So yeah, it just sounded like a brainer. The book was quite helpful.

Carmen: I really appreciate you saying that, Amy. And I think it's that thoughtfulness that not only goes into leadership, but I really noticed, not to pick your words, but how thoughtfully this book was laid out as well, especially full context. I have never managed myself. I've been a manager myself, but I got to say this book kind of made me feel like, huh, maybe my approach to working with people, that sort of human thoughtful side, maybe it's something that I can, it made me think I can do it, which was, I mean, props to Sarah for that, making me believe in myself is no small feat. No, but seriously, and the way it's laid out and it brings in so much humanity, it's also a very smooth read as well. It's well typed out, it's got great typography. The layout is just very, it's one of those books that you read and it feels like you're just coasting through it really well, but also absorbing so much information.

Matthew: Yeah. Do you want to know, what I appreciate about it is it's short and it doesn't waste a word. So the way that Sarah structured it is she'll kind of teach something and then give you a couple of examples, and then that's the end of the chapter. No. Oh, and back in the day when I was blah, blah, blah, and some books go into a real yarn and they go into a lot of detail to illustrate a very small point, none of that. This is lean and to the point. And I think when we were discussing it previously that I'm on, when we were both reading the book, I think you said it was dense, but not in a way that was kind of unpleasantly dense. And I kind of think that's a good way of describing it.

Amy: It's a really packed book. I think just like you both said, it's human. The thoughtfulness is what I really enjoy about it. And I also how very practical it is. There are tips that you could just pick up immediately. You don't have to think. You could just pick them up immediately and then implement them in how you manage or how you're thinking about managing people. I really agree with that. It was a very good read. In fact, I'd read it twice because I kept going back to it. So it's really, really a good book.

Carmen: I really like what you said, Amy, about it being something actionable. There were so many sections of the book where I was like, Hey, wait a minute, I can start doing this now. Even as an individual contributor, I could like, oh, it kind of makes me feel like how to be better managed as well, if that makes sense.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It does.

Matthew: That's interesting. So you're saying, sorry, Amy.

Amy: That's fine.

Matthew: That's fine. Okay. It's interesting that you say that, Carmen, that it makes you feel like it's easier for you to be managed. That's really interesting.

Carmen: Yeah, it kind of made me take a look back and be like, how can I make being managed easier for my manager? That's what I meant to say. If I could formulate a sentence. Yeah, no, it was cool.

Amy: I kind of liked the title for the rest of us, so I identify as the rest of us in that title. So yeah, it's kind of easier, like you said, Carmen, to take on being managed. Also, you can see both ways. She covered both perspectives. You could actually see it from the perspective of being a manager or being manager. And it's quite dense, like you said, packed. Very good.

Matthew: So let's look at one of the themes that covered in the book, and let's start with values. So I really like how Sarah sets this out. I've been thinking about company values a lot personally recently, and this is probably really obvious to everyone else, but I really liked the way, the realisation I got from reading this was that values are a shortcut for scaling a company. They're the medium through which a company can grow without losing the thing that makes it that company. And so Sarah mentioned something about, she gives an example of someone who worked at Rackspace and back in the day, Rackspace's mantra, I guess their core value was fanatical support. And Sarah describes in the book a meeting where people were asking at Rackspace, well, is this fanatical? And honestly, if I'd have been in that meeting a few years ago, I think I'd have felt a bit awkward because that just sounds a bit too much kind of cult-like thinking. But then the way that Sarah presents it and she demonstrates the practical value of values, I think actually that clicked for me. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I get it. And so I really liked the way that she talks about values. Then Amy, has that been something that you found useful from the book?

Amy: Absolutely, I did. I think it was an underlying principle or concept throughout the book. So I like that she handled it or addressed it first because it kept coming up in conflict management and feedback and she kept bringing it back, remember the values, and I like the way she layered it. So at a very deeper layer there is the value of an individual like me who is being managed. Then there's the team values defining that or making others aware or the team aware about, okay, this is the values that we'll hold there as a team. And then there's the company values and then how they all intersect in various and spheres. I think it's very, very, very useful to have that in mind in dealing with humans. It's money, it's engineering management, but it's really human management. So I like that it was addressed first before getting into the other concepts that were actually addressed. I kind of also have done a workshop she mentioned about how doing a values workshop. So I have a therapist who made me go through that values workshop some years ago, and she also mentioned how values sometimes evolve, sometimes they change, they change to something. You have core values that change or maybe fear off to different things. And I found that useful actually talking to myself and saying, okay, these are the values I hold there. And even with which company I should work for, for instance, my values come in play or in dealing with addressing an issue, my values come in play. So definitely I see very, very, very useful tips in valuing values.

Carmen: I love that. And it kind of reminds me of how that human side, how you need to essentially sum up this sort of stack of values in order to make somebody working at a company. Especially I find something very in developer relations where a lot of our work revolves around those values, not only internally but also externally. But going back to management, Amy, one part that really stood out to us was that of trust and vulnerability. Those of us that have thought of perhaps going into management have had here and their parts that they were, okay, I'm going to just say it, it's me. I've been a little bit nervous about, for example, what are the things that I can do to avoid, no, to do a good job and do well by the team that I would potentially manage. And one of those is this thing of trust and vulnerability, which I think could even go into transparency and picking the right layers for that. I'd love to know how has this impacted you and how you look at your work in DevRel?

Amy: Yeah, I mean the DevRel work, I think trust cannot be, it's not something you can do away with. You have to have developers trust you, first of all, you have to have, they have to have some kind of confidence in you to be able to really manage de experiences. And also I think trust also plays a very good important role in making people grow in growth. So there is a confidence, there is an atmosphere. When there's trust, there's an atmosphere where people are able to show their true selves authentic. They can be authentic in any environment, and then they can see steps in how they can grow. They can pick up easily learnings or quicker ideas on how to grow. So I've seen that, oh, I'm sorry, I should mute that. I hope that didn't got a message from work. So I think, yeah, it plays a very huge role endeavour, trust. Even internally, I've seen how you have to build trust with developers to have them say, okay, yes, this initiative that we are going to gain some confidence in it. Usually it's trying to help them see the why, trying to help them see why we are picking up an initiative and why we should do that. And they have to have some trust in you to believe that, okay, yes, this is exactly what we should be doing and this is the direction we are going in. And it goes also into vulnerability within the team. I think it's, it's a very useful, very important point.

Matthew: So vulnerability as a manager, is it a difficult one? I think because I wonder if you can be too vulnerable because your job as a manager is to some extent to protect your team from the things that would make it harder for them to be effective in their role at its most basic. And so if you are vulnerable, then that's good for being a human being and it's good for building trust. But also I think I've worked with people, managers who, if I'd been a different personality there, frankly a couple of them overshared at times, and that was fine for me. But I know that perhaps at earlier stages in my career, I might've started freaking out about things that they told me. And so I wonder what is the line to tread? Yeah,

Amy: Yeah, I think it differs basically depending on context. Just like everything in text, it depends really. But I would like us to see vulnerability. I mean there are other limitations, right? Because if you consider the whole context, some people have to consider things like identity. For instance, being a woman in a majorly male field, being black or a person of colour and all that. Those identities actually intersect in how you present yourself in management and how you manage your environmental people. So there are other things to think about, but I would like us to see vulnerability or I see vulnerability more in terms of transparency, more in terms of how I work and making it open. This is it, this is how we are moving and this is what I think we should move in this direction. Also, having it mutual so you're transparent. I'm transparent to you about how I work and transparent to you, how I feel like our direction should be going towards and then seeing the other way. So to me, that's more vulnerability. I mean, there's a personal angle to it where people get very, very comfortable with you and want to go more personal. I think that's fair. There is some connection I think you can pick up when people are more comfortable with you to get people very personal. I think you can use that. She also talks about boundaries, about how you can build boundaries. So I think that might be a point to also pick up and say, okay, yeah, you can enforce that. But I see vulnerability very, very much. It's almost synonymous with transparency for me. That's how I see when I'm doing work and I feel like it's moving in the right direction. I'm saying, yes, we are doing well when I'm doing work. And I feel like, yeah, okay, it's not exactly what we thought it was. I can set up and say, yeah, okay, I thought this was what was going to happen, but right now it's not working this way. I can't be transparent enough or to say, yeah, it's not exactly what we expected, but yeah, this is what's happening. To me, vulnerability is interchangeable with transparency that way.

Matthew: But is transparency a luxury that we have during the good times? A lot of our friends and colleagues in DevRel have been through layoffs and similar situations recently. And I wonder, as a manager that puts you often, you are given privileged information and as a human being you want to say, go and apply for jobs now, get your resume polished up. But as a manager, you have a responsibility two ways. You have the responsibility, I guess, to the company and to your people. So yeah, I wonder if transparency is something that only really works when everything's going smoothly.

Amy: Well, I really don't have an answer to that. I've actually been in situations where, so me being managed, I've been in a situation where my manager called me up and said, okay, yeah, this is where the company is going for your safety. I think you should start ramping up all that. And I felt very, it made me build so much confidence, trust in that person. I felt like he had my back. This is exactly the person I want to be in meetings talking about me. I felt almost being sponsored. This is the person. So I can't see, I can't talk about it the other way, but I feel, yeah, probably it's a luxury for good times, transparency. But yeah, I don't really know. What do you think Ram? How would you say?

Carmen: Yeah, I've been caught in a mind loop trying to figure that one out because there's a degree of responsibility towards your team that I think is also due because Matthew, how you said, I mean, just to provide a different perspective, you know how you talked about you have the responsibility not just to your team, but to the company as well. And in that sort of inverse way, if there's an aspect, if there's, there's a component in your team that's causing friction, you also owe it to the work that you're doing to figure that out. And then I think transparency with, of course a lot of discretion plays an important role. So I don't know if I would say it's a luxury for the good times because I feel like, and maybe, I mean of course the degree, sure, the degree of transparency, sure, there is going to need to be some, I think it falls down to being discreet and respectful as well. But I think that when responsibility is due, then transparency is key in the bad times as well. Amy, you also made me think about, first of all, thank you so much for beating me to the punch out. There's a moment where I was flipping to the books, what chapter was setting boundaries. It was chapter 22, because I think that's such an important component to vulnerability. And I think that's where the balance comes in because, and something that I find a lot in developer relations as well is at a bird's eye view level, a lot of it involves putting yourself, your personality or your spirit into your job and setting those. And this is, especially for marginalised folks, this becomes a lot trickier to navigate. So I think stating outright, listen, be vulnerable, but set boundaries protect that core component of you that can afford, so that you can afford that vulnerability. And I think that balancing is quite critical. So I really appreciate you bringing it up.

Amy: Yeah, it is very, very important I think to set boundaries. And the truth is, if you don't do it explicitly, you are doing it implicitly. So boundaries would always be there, but it's just they sometimes are not really defined. So if you don't do explicit certain boundaries explicitly, they're already set. They're already there. You just haven't given some word to it or given some awareness to it. Basically,

Matthew: I'd encourage people to read the book, but I'd love some practical examples of boundary setting for those that haven't read the book.

Amy: Yeah, okay. I would have to think of one right now.

Matthew: That's fine. We can skip this if you like.

Amy: Yeah,

Matthew: The reason I mention it's just because it is something that sounds very good in the abstract, but I'd love to think about as a manager, what sort of boundaries do I need to set? Are we talking about maybe not a lot of teams, alcohol is a big part of the culture. Maybe it's taking a step back from taking part in that kind of thing because you need to maintain your dignity and your authority. Because I think there is a weird line, particularly in tech. Everyone's trying to get along in a friendly way and there are hierarchies but aren't, it's not like a traditional workplace where you have to lift your cap to the foreman or something like that. A lot of us work in quite flat hierarchies. And so as a manager, I've seen people fall into the trap of completely erasing the boundaries and then when it comes time to pull someone up on something or even get into a disciplinary situation, they've lost their credibility and their authority. But at the same time, as a manager, you should be able to sing karaoke at the Christmas party or something like that. So I don't know quite where the boundaries lie that we're discussing here.

Carmen: So if I may, I think I can think of a couple of examples. One less related to DevRel is, for example, with community leadership, myself, I have thought of myself as somebody who can take, say a negative actor acting out towards me, but because we have a code of conduct I need to outright, I'll take it. But for the community's sake, I need to say, Hey, not cool. Enforce that code of conduct accordingly. But I think as a person, I would have the tendency on a personal side, I would have the tendency to be like, I'll just let it slide. I think that's, I mean that's kind of related, but on a more working and developer relations sense, I think when it comes to things like being responsive on messaging, platform of choice, if I message my manager at, I dunno, 10:00 PM their time, I know they're not going to get back to me until the morning, which is a good thing. That's a boundary, right? Same goes for taking time off. Same goes for saying, for example, listen, I'm kind of swamped right now. Let me get back to, I'm really sorry about that. And I think those are these kinds of boundaries. I think it would be overdoing it to say something like be the change you want to see. But I think that example for your team helps you also enable them to set those boundaries that you want them to set, if that makes any sense. Yeah,

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. It does. I was also thinking about in terms of, so there is also the tendency to be dragged here, dragged there to set up initiatives here, endeavour especially, everyone wants your input here, there. So I was thinking of setting boundaries in terms of, okay, this is the direction our team is going. And I think she also mentioned about saying no. Right? Okay, so this is direction our team is going, and so if you are contacting us for this particular thing, it's okay to say, okay, we can't go this direction right now, so we would have to give you, but on a personal level, it's also very, very, very, it's a balancing act on a personal level to set boundaries ethically, especially, it's always somehow not so clear sometimes to people. But yeah, I was thinking in the sense of setting boundaries professionally, setting boundaries to say, okay, this is what we are doing. This is exactly the pace we are going, this is the direction we are going. And if we want to scope out, we'll have to do that after we are done with what we are doing, what direction we have already set out to do. Personally boundaries also work very well. In the case of someone being maybe too open or too, I don't think there's anything like being too open to the fair, but in the case of someone being very, very TMI leading too much information, so setting boundaries to say, okay, I understand that we have this connection, but for a work setting, can we make it more professional, make it more that we are talking about work. We don't have to talk about work all the time, but we have to set some boundaries to say, okay, we can't diverge towards this angle for this meeting. I mean, I feel like boundaries you can address it in so many ways. If you have someone on your team who is prone to doing that sharing too much, you could have, she talked about certain meetings. Also, there could be just meetings where you share, you just want to share and you set that up with that person and say, okay, this time is the time that we feel like we can just chit chat. It's a chitchat, so we can do that. But we have set meetings where we have to focus on work or focus on something that we are doing for on the job. That way you are setting a boundary, you are setting your own mental space. Okay, this time I have for this, this time I have for that. I mean it sounds very robotic, but yeah, I think it helps in helping people to see that, yeah, this is where you are at this point in time.

Matthew: So one of the things that you touched on earlier, Carmen was negativity in a community. But I've certainly worked in teams where they end up in a bit of a negative fatigue spiral. Someone's not feeling appreciated or they don't feel aligned with the company goals, or maybe the company is doing the wrong thing and misery loves company is the phrase, it's a cliche, but it's kind of true. And so one negative person in a team can end up spreading negativity. And that's something that Sarah covers in the book and she talks about this thing of the undoing effect. So how can you work towards undoing that negativity? I just think that was a really key thing to be aware of as a manager or a potential manager, is that the reality experienced by the people in your team is a product of the inputs that they put in. So if people do start to become negative, then it becomes a cycle of negativity and it's for you as a manager to acknowledge that is happening and then address the causes of it within your path to do so. Because if most people aren't being negative just because they want to ruin everyone's fun, it is coming out of something else. And so I think it's really is a really key part of being a manager to understand where that's coming from and then find a way out of it so that the team doesn't spiral into inability to do anything. So demotivated.

Amy: Yeah, the motivating angle of being a manager is very key. Team morale culturally is really, really key. And I think, I love the way Sarah addressed it because as managers I feel it's key to make sure that your team is happy. She also addressed humour, right? Teams that laugh together actually healthier. I think that's actually really, really true. I found that most of the teams that I have been with that we could have very easy laughs together where we have humour together. It also creates the environment of psychological safety. You can just be easy around people in the team. So I do think it's important, and I think it was a key point also in the book about addressing negativity, addressing it.

Carmen: This kind of reminds me of how lately in my work, sometimes I notice that, or lately or at times during work where there's been a little bit of a negative negativity cliff, let's call it that, where it's like you're almost going to go into that spiral where I found that and reading this book helped me with it to just try and inject a little bit of joy, humanity, of letting go, taking advantage of some of the things that I can provide specifically my really bad CSS to just like, Hey, come paint the bike shed with me. And just that is give me lots of nitpicky suggestions and let's just go through a cycle. And I think injecting a little bit of, I really like what you said about injecting humour, just occasionally being, making jokes about how bad my CSS is. I found that that's sort of alleviated a lot of it. And this book really helped me clarify that, and thank you so much for bringing that up. On that note of motivation, and this is going to sound silly when I read, it wasn't until I read this book that it dawned on me that it is possible as a manager to help your team architect what their career paths look like and how you could help them achieve their career laddering. And because in my spare time, I will mentor folks, but it never occurred to me that of course, that's what my manager does with me as well. Right. And I'm curious, how did that impact how you look at career laddering for developer relations?

Amy: Yeah, I think one of the key things I took from the book was that career laddering, because I think for developer relations in some companies that are just adopting the role, it's not too clear where the career is going to look like. But I think one of the key points was from that chapter was getting input from the people as a manager sitting down to say, I think she mentioned about drawing out a 30, 60 day, 90 day or even five years looking into the future, sitting down and saying, okay, where do you see you? What do you think you want to be in five years? She also brought that back to values and how that would also tell on what the person particularly values. I think it was key for me in that, I mean, we have this ladders, we have, okay, junior, we have senior, we have staff principal and all that, or even the manager role. But it's key, I think, to have a vision of what exactly the people we are managing wants. It's key to know what exactly do you want in the next 30 days. It would help inform how you can support that person's career. It would help inform how you can think of that person in the next five years, how you can draw a path or support or sponsor their career. I think it was key for me that there is that awareness, let it be very known that I care about what your career is going to look like in the team and getting the input from that individual. But I also, I think one of the things that has just dropped in my mind now is about how to deal with when team members decide that they no longer want to be in the team. I dunno if you've ever had a situation and how you had to deal with it. When you feel like when a team member says, okay, I've stayed in the team. You've tried all your tactics or your best management skills, but this team member is saying, okay, yeah, I don't think this team is for me. I dunno if any of you have had to deal with that managing people and how you handle that.

Matthew: I think the only way to handle it is to have an open, honest conversation and find the best transition for everyone involved. Years ago, I had a developer advocate in my team who came to me and said, look, there's a technical writer position in the company. I want to do that. I don't want to be a developer advocate. I've realised and I want to go and be a technical writer. And so we had a discussion about it, and in that case, I kind of wished the person had come to me sooner because that would've helped with planning the transition. But in the end, it worked fine. They went off and they were happy and we carried on as a team. So yeah, I've dealt with that, but I don't think I've got any particular insights other than just create an atmosphere within your team where people feel safe coming to you to talk about things that traditionally might have been awkward. I mean, I'm sure we've all heard stories of people where they expressed some doubt about whether they wanted to be in a role, and the next day all of their accounts are closed down and they're put on gardening leave and that's it. Goodbye. And I think it's managers, particularly in Dev Rel, where it's from a very selfish point of view. In dre, the last thing you want to do is annoy a member of a very small community of people because we're all going to work with each other again at some point, or know someone who does. So I think just be open and honest and let people feel safe coming to you. Now, you can't control what the broader company policy is, but at least as a manager, you can decide how you deal with it.

Carmen: It makes me think of how important that aspect of trust and vulnerability is not just as a manager, but as a team member where, like you said, Matthew, you wish they'd come to you sooner. Because of course, that transparency, that sort of open-ended conversation can be made smoother. And there's nothing wrong with, in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with being like, listen, it's going to really stink not having you with us. What can I do in order to persuade you to stay with us? Or what can I offer and try to meet a middle ground? And if that doesn't work, that's totally fine. So I think that transparent knowing of that, you know, can talk to your manager and tell them like, Hey, I'm thinking of taking on this role. Or like you said, Matthew, I want to stop being a developer advocate. I want to go into something else. I think being supportive and maybe even asking a right, Hey, listen, if you know anybody who could take, again, never managed notify that this is a policy, it's like, Hey, if you know somebody who could take your place, that'd be amazing. Stuff like that. I think it's that communication aspect, which is such a core skill in everything we do.

Matthew: And one of the keywords throughout the entire book is clarity and clarity of purpose. Clarity of communication is key to being a manager. I've always appreciated, I know I said earlier that there were some managers who maybe shared, shared more than you'd expect on the topic of vulnerability, but the managers that I've worked with best have had that clarity of purpose. They've been able to communicate and interpret the company's strategy as it applies to our team and to me as an individual. And I think that is great. And if you have a culture of clarity, then everything else I think kind of falls into place to an extent. Now, obviously there's going to be times when external difficulties prevail, but yeah, clarity is important,

Amy: Especially in this times, I think clarity is it's very, very necessary, very, very necessary. And also to avoid burnout. So you don't want your team members just doing things just because, and then at the end of the day, it's not meeting company goals or company general objectives. So I think as an engineering manager, I like that that theme was across the book. It was clarity, make sure there is some clarity, let your team members know this is the direction we are going, this is our purpose, the purpose of our team. And I like that in some way, she kept emphasising, repeating it, some repetition, highlighting it maybe on Wiki, making it the top link there so that you could see when you keep seeing that, okay, this is where we are going, this is where we are headed, you have some focus and you're not just everywhere. You have a way to make sure that your input is very, very targeted. So as managers, I think managers, we do have a very key role in defining clarity, defining, and also repeating it, making sure that, because sometimes people ve of you want to bring them back and say, okay, this is where we are we going this way, and I think it's very important in this day, much more important. Very important.

Carmen: Totally. This makes me think how, I love what you said about defining clarity, because a little thought that started cropping up in my mind as I was listening to you too, was overdoing it on clarity to the point of becoming, not condescending per se, but it becoming an issue where you'd have a manager being like, I just want to make, it's about delivery. It's about tone of being like, I just want to make sure you understand what you need to do, how that's delivered. And that's why I really like what you said about defining clarity, super important, and I think it's something, definitely something I can practise more of. Wonderful. Listen folks, we have barely scratched the surface of this book. I mean, like Matthew said that I said before, this is a dense book. It doesn't look that thick. For those listening, I'm holding it up and it's maybe a centimetre or too thick. It is extremely jam packed with really good stuff in it. So I highly recommend checking it out. Amy, is there anything that we might've missed from our conversation that you wanted to cover?

Amy: I was muted. Yeah, I'm back. I think we covered the major things. I also highlighted to talk about important, I think I liked the key notes she spoke about or mentioned about prioritising. Prioritising in terms of, because it's also a clarity conversation. Basically. You have to say, okay, this is what we should prioritise. And even for yourself, I actually like the cadence of how the layout of the book was. It started from your team and then it ended up you, because like you said, you have to manage yourself. You have to manage yourself because yeah, also managing people. So one keynote I think I would like to end with is I liked how she talked about prioritising and how you can go about, I like the practicalities she gave about given priority to work. That should be done at the particular point.

Matthew: Amy, thank you very much for bringing this book to us. It was a delight to read and lovely to talk to you about it. Where can people find you on the internet if they want to follow your work?

Amy: Yeah, I am on Twitter at AmyStrings, I think on the internet. Yes, you can find me there. I would try to respond, not so much the social media thread, but yeah, definitely. You could reach out to me as AmyStrings on Twitter if you have to follow up with what I am doing.

Carmen: Great. Well,

Matthew: Thank you so much.

Carmen: This has been absolutely wonderful, Amy. Thank you for this once again. Thank you, Matthew, as always, and folks for listening. It's such a joy to do. Thank you.

Amy: Thank you.

Carmen: Bye. See you next time.